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I have been struggling with a logical dilemma, do you have any answers on how to view this?
ReplyDelete"How can the Free Grace theology view of John 15 stand, as they view the vine as experiential fellowship, and someone cast away from the vine is cast away from fellowship, not into hell. However, how does the claim that we can only bear fruit when in the vine (fellowship), account for the fact that the standard remedy for fellowship (confession and forsaking (Proverbs 28:13) the sin) are fruits? The term "fruit" translates the Greek καρπός (karpos), which in a biblical framework refers to the outward product or evidence produced by the Holy Spirit working in and through a believer, such as the qualities listed in Galatians 5:22–23 or the righteous actions that flow from spiritual life and power. By this definition, confession of sin and forsaking of sin are logically considered fruits, as they are Spirit-produced outcomes. The challenge is this: If one can only bear fruit while in the vine (i.e., in fellowship/abiding), how can confession and forsaking sin—actions that are biblically presented as fruit—serve as the remedy to restore broken fellowship? This appears self-defeating, as the means of return would require the very condition (fruit-bearing fellowship) it seeks to restore"
The issue is that Free Grace commentaries tend to strcitly say that no fruit apart from fellowship is possible, as Robert Dean, Jr writes:
"This is the goal of the believer’s life and necessary to glorify God. In John chapter fifteen Jesus states that abiding in Him is the necessary and only condition for fruit production."
As I'm sure you probably know, there are quite a few interpretations of John 15:1-11 that are consistent with Free Grace Theology. I'm not sure that we necessarily need to get into all that, but we can if you want.
ReplyDeleteI'll begin with your first statement. You said: "How can the Free Grace theology view of John 15 stand, as they view the vine as experiential fellowship, and someone cast away from the vine is cast away from fellowship, not into hell."
I would deny your premise. The vine is not fellowship, abiding in the vine is fellowship. The Greek word for "abide" is menō. It means to abide or to remain. Here is the key distinction: being "in" the Vine (i.e. "in Christ") is salvation; whereas abiding in the Vine (Christ) is fellowship. You see the difference? Your statement seems to conflate those two things. That seems to be (as least in part) why you are thus confused.
You again conflated salvation and fellowship when you said: "The challenge is this: If one can only bear fruit while in the vine (i.e., in fellowship/abiding), how can confession and forsaking sin—actions that are biblically presented as fruit—serve as the remedy to restore broken fellowship?"
I would not necessarily agree with the way you phrased the hypothetical. I would instead say that a Christian can only bear fruit while in fellowship with the vine." By way of contrast, you said that "one can only bear fruit while in the vine (i.e., in fellowship/abiding)." But those are two different things! Being "in the vine" is salvation (that's our position: "in Christ"); whereas being "in fellowship/abiding" in the vine is discipleship (this is our condition in this world): Are we following Christ? Are we walking in step with the Spirit? (Gal. 5:16) If so, we will bear fruit!
All this might seem like a minor distinction, but it's important. In fact, it's all important! It's essential to understand. Because as Christians, we are always "in the vine" (i.e. "in Christ" ) positionally speaking, even when in our condition here on this earth we might be out of fellowship with Him. It's the difference between "position" and "condition." (C. I. Scofield and Lewis Sperry Chafer have written a lot on this topic.) As Christians, we are never severed from the Vine (Christ). But if and when we "quench the Spirit" (1 Thess. 5:19), then we are not letting God work through us. That is when we are out of fellowship (not abiding in the Vine), even though we are still "in Christ."
You asked about fruit. As Christians, we are always "in Christ" (or "in the Vine"). Therefore we will bear fruit if and when we allow His life to work itself out in us. We just bear the fruit, you see. He produces it. It's the fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22-23). So when we don't quench the Spirit, but rather are walking or living by the Spirit's power (Gal. 5:16), He will produce the fruit in and through us!
By way of contrast, your statements make it seem as if we have to start producing fruit in order to get back "in" the Vine. No! We are always "in" the Vine positionally speaking; even when we are out of fellowship we are still positionally "in Christ." So that is the key point to understand. And that is the answer to your question. Understanding that. Because then it is just a matter of (on our part) opening the spigot so to speak, or turning on the water faucet and letting the water flow through! The Holy Spirit is the water (Jn. 7:38-39). We are, as the hymn says, "channels only"! The plumbing is always connected, you see. We just need to stop "quenching the Spirit" and then His fruit will be produced in us by the Holy Spirit (e.g., love, joy, peace, etc.) as we abide in Christ and we will "bear much fruit and so prove to be His disciples" (Jn. 15:8).
No, but I meant that 1 John, Proverbs 28 and such present confession (or confession + forsaking sin as in Proverbs) as prerequisites to restore fellowship, but aren't those actions themselves fruits?
ReplyDeleteThe issue I found, but couldn't explain is the following logical issue:
P1: Confession and forsaking of sin are fruit (Spirit-produced, obedient outward acts; cf. Proverbs 28:13, 1 John 1:9).
P2: No fruit can be produced outside of abiding in fellowship with Christ
P3: Confession and forsaking of sin are the necessary means to restore abiding fellowship when it is broken (1 John 1:9; Proverbs 28:13).
Logical outcome:
If confession and forsaking are themselves fruit, and fruit only grows in fellowship, then one must already be in fellowship to produce them. Yet Scripture presents these very acts as the doorway back into fellowship. Therefore, the remedy demands the very condition it must restore.
(I must confess that I am lacking in information on the doctrine of fellowship, which may be why I do not know how to answer this issue)
Answer:
ReplyDelete1. It seems that part of your confusion is because you are viewing "confession" as fruit (i.e. spiritual fruit). But confession in 1 John 1:9 is simply agreeing with God. It is the Greek word homologeō, which means "to say the same thing as," or "to agree with." Not necessarily verbally, but a mental agreement. That is, it's an acknowledgment that what God says is true; or agreeing in your heart that what God says is true. As the Bible says in the Old Testament book of Amos: "How can two walk together [in fellowship] unless they have agreed?" (Amos 3:3).
2. Part of your confusion probably also results from viewing Proverbs 28:13 as a direct equivalent to 1 John 1:9. You will notice however, that in the Proverbs quotation, it adds an extra condition not found in 1 John 1:9. Namely, Proverbs 28:13 says that "he who confesses and forsakes his transgression will find mercy," while 1 John 1:9 simply says "if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us of all unrighteousness." It's helpful to remember that the biblical proverbs are general principles, whereas 1 John 1:9 is more specific in that it is written directly to the Christian believer who is out of fellowship and the means of restoring that fellowship is specifically given. Proverbs 28:13 is a general principle that pertains to believers and unbelievers alike: "the one who confesses and forsakes his transgression will find mercy." So my point is that Proverbs 28:13 is not directly referring to restoring a Christian's fellowship, as is 1 John 1:9. So let's focus on 1 John 1:9.
3. Furthermore, pertaining to 1 John 1:9, just because confession of sin is "produced by the Holy Spirit working in and through a believer" or is a "Spirit-produced outcome" (as you mentioned in your previous comment), doesn't necessarily mean it's a fruit. Instead, the confession could be the result of God's discipline/chastisement which leads or prompts the believer to confess/acknowledge his or her sin. This is biblical repentance! Regarding this, the Bible says of God's discipline that "afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it" (Hebrews 12:11, NKJV, emphasis added). Thus, the acknowledgement of one's sin, or agreeing with God about it (Grk. homologeō, 1 Jn. 1:9) is not in itself fruit; it is repentance. It is a "change of mind." It's when the prodigal son realized he needed to return home, for example (see Luke 15:17-19). And pertaining to repentance, we know that repentance is one thing, and the fruit of repentance is another, i.e. something different (see Matt. 3:8; Lk. 3:8; Acts 26:20). In the book of Revelation, Jesus tells the churches that are erring to "repent!" (See Rev. 2:5, 2:16, 2:22, 3:3, and especially Rev. 3:19.) That repentance, in and of itself is not a fruit; rather, it is a "change of mind" that leads to (or is preparatory to) spiritual fruit. In short, the confession of sin in 1 John 1:9 involves repentance, or having a "change of mind," or in other words, agreeing with God (Grk. homologeō) that what He says is true. It is agreeing with God that we sinned. That is the change of mind: coming to that realization and acknowledgment in one's heart, as David did in Psalm 32:5 when he said, "I acknowledged by sin to Thee, and my iniquity I did not hide; I said, 'I will confess my transgressions to the LORD'; and Thou didst forgive the guilt of my sin." Amen!
Continued below....
4. Also consider that even unbelievers (!) can agree with God about certain things, e.g., that what the Bible says is true. That doesn't mean they are bearing spiritual fruit; they are not. Rather, maybe they just changed their mind about certain things. Maybe the unsaved person realized in their heart that "Yes, I'm a sinner. That's true." (See 1 Cor. 15:3; Rom. 3:10, 23.) Maybe they even got saved! When an unbeliever gets saved, that is the result of them having "a change of mind" (from unbelief in Christ to believing in Him as their personal Savior). That change of mind is biblical repentance (Grk. metanoia). That should lead to spiritual fruit, but repentance and the fruit of repentance are distinct in Scripture (compare Matthew 3:8; Luke 3:8; Acts 26:20). As I noted above.
ReplyDeleteSo my point is that I think it helps to view 1 John 1:9 as descriptive of repentance (not in the context of salvation, but in the context of fellowship), even though the word itself is not used in that particular verse. As I said, Jesus does use the word "repent" in similar contexts in reference to Christians, such as in Revelation chapters 2-3 in the various letters specifically to the erring churches (see Rev. 2:5, 2:16, 2:22, 3:3, and especially Rev. 3:19; cf. Lk. 15:17-19; Heb. 12:11). I think understanding 1 John 1:9 in this way also helps to answer your question in regard to fruit, because it is perhaps more easily seen that repentance is distinct from the spiritual fruit which should follow, whereas by just looking at confession (Grk. homologeō) that distinction might not be as clear.
But this brings further questions, if it is a mere mental agreement without an idea of forsaking (as in a resolve to quit) the sin, then that would imply that someone in the midst of grave sin, would still have uninterrupted fellowship as long as they intelectually agreed that the act is a sin?
ReplyDeleteAdditionally, how does that work with the conditions to "walk in the light" (1 John 1:7) and forgiving others (Mat 6:14). Those clearly are fruits of the Spirit, yet are made conditions of fellowship?
You had asked me about "the remedy to restore broken fellowship?" Correct? That is presented in 1 John 1:9. Correct? 1 John 1:9 says nothing about "forsaking (as in a resolve to quit) the sin." Correct?
ReplyDeleteYou also brought up Proverbs 28:13. But in that text it says nothing about forgiveness! Rather, it says that the person who forsakes their sin "will find mercy." Finding mercy is not the same as finding forgiveness. A person can find mercy and not receive forgiveness. Those are two different things (related but different). Whereas I John 1:9 details how the Christian who is out of fellowship can obtain actual forgiveness (in the sense of parental forgiveness, cf. Jn. 13:10), not merely receive mercy.
I think it also helps to understand that the New Testament epistles are "the marching orders for the church." In other words, "the marching orders for the church" are not the Old Testament proverbs of Solomon. The NT concept of the church and the spiritual truths found in the NT epistles are largely if not completely unknown in Proverbs, whereas they are revealed to us by the Spirit through the Apostles in the NT epistles.
Thus you have it backwards when you are reinterpreting the epistles based on the Old Testament. Specifically, you are adding a condition to 1 John 1:9 from the Proverbs (28:13). No wonder you are confused! We should rather interpret the Old Testament in light of the New Testament. The correct approach is to focus on the NT, and interpret the Old Testament in light of the NT.
Specifically, what does 1 John 1:9 say is the condition to restore broken fellowship? Does it simply say "if we confess our sins He if faithful and righteous to forgive us," or does it say "if we confess and forsake our sins and then prove the genuineness of our confession by doing a long list of penitential acts such as climbing the marble steps of the Scala Sancta on our knees until they bleed red"? (You may recall that the latter is exactly what Martin Luther did, for example, trying to obtain the forgiveness of sins!)
And furthermore, if you will indulge my line of reasoning for a moment, if you are so desirous of looking to the Old Testament for how to live the Christian life in this age of Grace: do you still bring an unblemished lamb 1 year old (Exod. 12:5) into the congregation of believers in order that you might offer it as an acceptable sacrifice to Almighty God? They did in the Old Testament! Why don't you? Obviously because you recognize (I hope) that while all Scripture is written for us (and is profitable, 2 Tim. 3:16), it is not all written directly to us.
The Old Testament proverbs are general principles and guidelines that apply to daily life here in this world in which we live. And actually, the proverbs can apply to both believer and unbeliever alike! Depending, of course, on the specific proverb. For example, one proverb says that "it is good not to each too much honey." That can apply to believer and unbeliever alike. That is not specifically church-age truth, but rather it's just a general principle.
So my point is that the Proverbs are not written specifically to the church-age Christian living in this age of grace. Whereas 1 John most definitely is! So let's focus on 1 John. You had a question about 1 John 1:9, in particular. That is what I'm responding to, unless I misunderstood you.
Continued below...
You said: "if it is a mere mental agreement without an idea of forsaking (as in a resolve to quit) the sin, then that would imply that someone in the midst of grave sin, would still have uninterrupted fellowship as long as they intelectually agreed that the act is a sin?"
ReplyDeleteIt seems like you are asking about a Christian brother or sister who is living in sin and how are they supposed to restore fellowship with God after he or she has sinned or is still in the midst of sin. First of all, no one is saying that they would have uninterrupted fellowship when they sin. Sin always causes a break in fellowship. You can be assured of that! But I'm not sure why you mentioned only "grave sin," since ALL SIN causes a break in fellowship with God (and 1 John 1:9 doesn't specify only "grave sin" but rather ANY SIN).
Related to your question, let's not pretend to be all pious and "holier than thou." I'm not saying you are pretending to be; I'm saying let's be careful to make sure we are not thinking that way. That's how the Pharisees acted and God hates it.
But in answer to your question, if a Christian sins again after he or she confess his or her sin (or sins) to God, or if they confess sin while still in the midst of sin (gross sin or even any sin), then of course, they would then need to confess that sin too.
I'm sure you understand that in this life in which we live here on earth, Christians do not attain to what some have called "sinless perfection." But the way your question is worded, it almost seems like you are surprised that Christians sin! Or that they sin repeatedly! This should not be a surprise to anyone who is sensitive to the Spirit of God, as we probably sin every day. And this is exactly why 1 John 1:9 is so necessary.
Or maybe I should ask you: have you forsaken all known sin? Or do you still sin? My Bible says, "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" (1 Jn. 1:8). In other words, you/we may have to confess the same sin multiple times a day! Didn't Jesus say, that if a brother sins against us we should forgiven 70 times 7? (See Matthew 18:21-22; compare Luke 17:3-4 where Jesus talks about a brother who sins against another brother seven times a day). Surely God does not forgive us less than He calls us to forgive others!
You said: "Additionally, how does that work with the conditions to 'walk in the light' (1 John 1:7) and forgiving others (Mat 6:14). Those clearly are fruits of the Spirit, yet are made conditions of fellowship?"
Yes, those are fruits of the Spirit. I'm not sure what your question is? If we abide in Christ (Jn. 15), that is, if we walk by means of the Spirit (Gal. 5:16), then we have fellowship with one another (and presumably also with God, Matt. 6:14) as it says in 1 John 1:7.
Walking in the light and forgiving others are not conditions to restore broken fellowship (which is confession, 1 Jn. 1:9), those things are conditions to maintain fellowship. In other words, in order to maintain fellowship with God, we need to abide in Him. So to answer your question, I would say those are conditions to maintain fellowship, not to restore fellowship after it has been broken. To restore broken fellowship, the condition is "if we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us of all unrighteousness" (1 Jn. 1:9).
I still want to ask clarifying questions (note: I also have a pattern of obsessive thinking, so I often need to be very detailed):
ReplyDeleteSo by "forsaking" I was referring moreso to mental forsaking (resolve to change).
But here is what I still do not understand:
If confession is defined as mere mental agreement that something is wrong without including within it some kind of resolve to do otherwise, then a person in the midst of sin could be already mentally agreeing that it is wrong. They know the act is sinful; they agree with God's verdict about it. Wouldn't that mental agreement itself count as confession? And if so, wouldn't that mean fellowship remains unbroken—even while the person continues in the sin, as they are mentally "agreeing" that what they are doing is sin?
If someone sins, knows it is wrong, and mentally agrees with God that it is wrong, but still chooses it anyway, how has fellowship actually been disrupted? What element of the relationship was broken if the person never stopped agreeing that the act was sinful, and we define confession as merely mental agreement that something is wrong?
This exposes the dilemma I am stuck on:
On one hand, it seems difficult for confession to lack an internal resolve to stop that specific sin.
But on the other hand, if we admit that confession includes a mental resolve to turn from sin, then how is that act of inner turning not a fruit of the Spirit?
If someone does a sin, but knows that its wrong, yet still chooses it, how is fellowship hurt in that event, if he is still in his mind agreeing that it is wrong?
The issue I am seeing thus is that its hard to see confession not involving a mental resolve to to not do that specific sin within it, yet simultaniously, if we accept that a mental resolve is included, for that act not to be a fruit of the Spirit?
(I used AI to assist to make my thoughts more easily expressible, but I still rechecked everything)
I also want to add a few more thoughts pertaining to Matthew 6:14, since you mentioned it in one of your previous comments. I understand Jesus' statement in Matt. 6:14 as related to fellowship forgiveness, not salvation forgiveness. I would point to what Jesus says in John 13:10 about how the one who has taken a bath (i.e., received a complete cleansing) needs only to wash his feet. The washing of the feet is, in other words, spot washing or daily cleansing to maintain fellowship. The daily cleansing involves confessing our sins as it says in 1 John 1:9.
ReplyDeleteIf a believer is harboring unforgiveness in their heart toward another person, that is a sin and it therefore breaks fellowship not only between the two individuals involved, but also between the sinning believer and God. So how is fellowship restored? You probably guessed it: 1 John 1:9! But I can anticipate your question: what if the believer confesses his sin to God (1 Jn. 1:9) but refuses to get right with the other person? You will say, "Well, doesn't the sinning believer need to forsake their sin of unforgiveness toward the other person in order to be forgiven by God?" Thank the Lord that He knows our hearts! If a person just mouths an insincere confession, but has not really had that "change of mind" (i.e. biblical repentance), then of course God will not accept a lie for the truth! The Bible says that God desires truth in the inward parts" (Psa. 51:6). I'm sure there are double-minded Christians who offer insincere petitions to God, but the Bible says that they should not expect to receive anything from the Lord (see James 1:7). By way of contrast, David had sincere repentance. He said, "I acknowledged my sin to Thee, and my iniquity I did not hide; I said, 'I will confess my transgressions to the LORD'; and Thou didst forgive the guilt of my sin" (Psa. 32:7).
So my point is that the confession must be genuine. That should lead to forsaking the sin (or sins). But like I asked you in my previous comment: Do you still sin? Have you forsaken all known sin? Or do you still commit some of the very same sins that you did last year? Or five years ago? Or ten years ago? If you are not perfect (and who is?!), then you must admit that you have not forsaken all sin! Yet I'm sure you expect God to forgive you when your confess your sins! You see, it is a moment by moment walk with God. God knows that we will sin. God knows that "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" (Matt. 26:41). And the remedy when we sin is 1 John 1:9. And here is something further to think about: 1 John 1:9 is the remedy precisely BECAUSE Christians do not forsake all sin! Please read that again and let it sink in. It is no coincidence that the Bible verse that immediately precedes 1 John 1:9 says: "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 Jn. 1:8).
(I hope I am not being annyoing here), but it still is confusing to me, as if we include a kind of resolve of the will (though not perfect) to not do that sin for genuine confession, I don't understand how that would not be a fruit of the Spirit?
DeleteWho is saying that "we include a kind of resolve of the will (though not perfect) to not do that sin"? I'm not saying that. Maybe you are misunderstanding me? The Greek word that the Holy Spirit chose to use in 1 John 1:9 is homologeō, which simply means "to say the same thing as" or "to agree with." In context, it is agreeing with God about our sins: "if we confess [Grk. homologeō] our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us of all unrighteousness" (1 Jn. 1:9, brackets added).
DeleteYou said: "Wouldn't that mental agreement itself count as confession?"
ReplyDeleteExactly. The Greek word used in 1 John 1:9 is homologeō, which means "to agree with" or "to say the same thing as."
You said: "And if so, wouldn't that mean fellowship remains unbroken—even while the person continues in the sin, as they are mentally 'agreeing' that what they are doing is sin?"
I would say that sin always breaks fellowship. Some Bible teachers, however, say that "walking in the light" (1 Jn. 1:7) means that if we confess our sin (or sins) as soon as God brings them to our attention, then we maintain unbroken fellowship even though we did sin. Since we confessed it immediately as soon as God brought it to our attention then it didn't break fellowship (they say). I'm okay with that interpretation. The other interpretation would be that sin always breaks fellowship, even if we are not aware of the sin, and fellowship is restored as soon as we confess it.
You said: "If someone sins, knows it is wrong, and mentally agrees with God that it is wrong, but still chooses it anyway, how has fellowship actually been disrupted?"
You were a bit unclear on whether or not the individual confessed their sins to God or not? I understand you said "mentally agrees with God that it is wrong," so I'm guessing by that you mean that the person confessed their sins to God, correct? And you are asking about what if the person doesn't stop the sin or if they repeat it again? I'm not sure if I understand your question. I think what I said above answers your question here.
You said: "What element of the relationship was broken if the person never stopped agreeing that the act was sinful, and we define confession as merely mental agreement that something is wrong?"
Just to clarify: the RELATIONSHIP was never broken; rather FELLOWSHIP was broken if and when a Christian sins. And furthermore, it's not just that "we define confession as merely mental agreement." Rather, we are getting the meaning OUT OF the text. In 1 John 1:9, the Holy Spirit uses the Greek word homologeō, which means to agree with God (in the context of 1 John 1:9, it is specified that we agree with God about our sins). You seem bent on putting some sort of a penitential burden on the backs of Christians that they must bear in order to "earn" or "merit" divine forgiveness. No! It's FREE GRACE brother! There is no penance required to earn God's forgiveness! That is a LIE of the Roman Catholic Church. Bask in the freeness of God's salvation and the completeness of Christ's sacrifice "for our sins"! His shed blood is sufficient for you and for ALL your sins, and my sins, and the whole world's sins for that matter. Christ's finished work means that when you as a believer in Christ simply confess your sins (as it says in 1 John 1:9), there is forgiveness for you then and there. There is no more work to be done! "It is finished!" (Jn. 19:30). The Bible says: "Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin [needed]." (See Hebrews 10:18.) There is no longer any offering for sin needed for salvation and not for fellowship either. When you sin, simply agree with God that what you did was wrong (that is, have genuine repentance, i.e., a change of mind about it), and fellowship is restored!
Continued below....
You said: "On one hand, it seems difficult for confession to lack an internal resolve to stop that specific sin."
ReplyDeleteYes, that is human nature. By nature we are conditioned to think in terms of works, not grace.
You said: "But on the other hand, if we admit that confession includes a mental resolve to turn from sin, then how is that act of inner turning not a fruit of the Spirit?"
But my point is that 1 John 1:9 does NOT say "that confession includes a mental resolve to turn from sin." So where are you getting that definition from? And how are you getting that definition from 1 John 1:9 since it's not there? Rather, the Greek word that is used in 1 Jn. 1:9 is homologeō, which simply means "to say the same thing as" or "to agree with." You seem bent on importing works into 1 John 1:9, when (as far as I can see from reading my Bible), that idea is entirely absent from the specific condition that is given in the verse.
You said: "then how is that act of inner turning not a fruit of the Spirit?"
It's significant that you said "then" because you have NOT shown that your premise is true. Your premise is that confession (Grk. homologeō) in 1 Jn. 1:9 includes forsaking sin. But you have not proved that from the Bible. Thus no wonder that your conclusion doesn't make sense. It's because your premise is wrong!
You said: "If someone does a sin, but knows that its wrong, yet still chooses it, how is fellowship hurt in that event, if he is still in his mind agreeing that it is wrong?"
As I noted earlier in my comments here, some Bible teachers say that the phrase "if we walk in the light, we have fellowship" (1 Jn. 1:7) it means that we maintain fellowship with God as long as we immediately confess our sin (or sins) as soon as God brings it to our attention and when we become aware of them. As I said, I'm ok with that interpretation. But you put a negative twist on it. It seems like in your hypothetical, the sinning Christian is trying to see what he or she can get away with and trying to continue to live in their sin. My question to you would be: how is that genuine confession? How is that genuine repentance? Maybe it is. I would tend to think it's not. But my point is that only God know a person's heart (1 Sam. 16:7). As the Bible says, "Will not the judge of the whole earth judge righteously?" (Gen. 18:25). I would say, let God decide. It seems like you are trying to see into the person's heart and try to see how much he or she can get away with. I'm not sure that's helpful. Bob Nyberg has well said: "Sometimes hypotheticals are not helpful." By way of contrast, I'm trying to stick with "Thus saith the LORD!"
You said: "The issue I am seeing thus is that its hard to see confession not involving a mental resolve to not do that specific sin within it, yet simultaniously, if we accept that a mental resolve is included, for that act not to be a fruit of the Spirit?"
I understand your dilemma, but my point is that your dilemma is self-imposed. If you just let the text speak for itself (i.e., if you just take what 1 John 1:9 says at "face value"), I think it will help to solve your dilemma. If "forsaking sin" is a condition to restore fellowship with God, then yes, you would have a logical dilemma on your hands because forsaking sin (if Spirit-led) would be a spiritual fruit, i.e., a fruit of the Spirit. And how can a believer who is out of fellowship with God and not abiding in Christ evidence the fruit of the Spirit? They obviously can't! Thus your question about how can a fruit of the Spirit be required to restore fellowship if that is actually the outcome of said fellowship? That just highlights the fact that "forsaking sin" is obviously not a condition to restore fellowship in 1 John 1:9.
I am still considering, what about examples where people petition for forgiveness in prayer (like in the Lord's prayer), is it a wrong practice to pray a prayer like "God, please forgive me of this sin) even if asking/prayer is not strictly required in the definition of confess?
ReplyDeleteAlso, the reason I was asking what if someone agrees about the sin during confession is because I don't quite still fully understand. Does "homologeo" mean only just knowledge that something is against God's will (like acknowledge that a specific act is sin), then what if someone does a sin while during the whole act having the knowledge that this act is wrong? Is that short of "homologeo" and how so? What is the difference?
Hi Valtteri,
ReplyDeleteYour first question sort of goes back to what I said previously. Because in regard to praying a prayer like "God, please forgive me of this sin" -- the point is, God looks at the heart (cf. 1 Sam. 16:7). As I mentioned previously, God obviously isn't going to forgive someone who is just mouthing the words if they don't mean it in their heart (Psa. 51:6; cf. Matt. 12:34, 15:8). And I agree with you that "prayer is not strictly required in the definition of confess."
In answer to your second question, I would say that the Greek word homologeō doesn't just mean "knowledge that something is against God's will," but rather it more specifically means (as you said) to "acknowledge" it. That is, to agree with it. Because a person can know something without agreeing with it. You see the difference? I mean, for example, I know that there are atheists in the world, and that atheism exists as a belief system. But I don't acknowledge it to be true. I don't agree with it. You see the difference? The Greek word homologeō is from two Greek words, homo ("same") and logos ("word," "speech," or "statement"). It basically means "to say the same thing as" or "to admit or declare the truth of a matter" (essentially agreeing with God's perspective). So now let's apply this definition to your question when you asked, "then what if someone does a sin while during the whole act having the knowledge that this act is wrong?" I would point out that the word you used ("knowledge") falls short of biblical confession, as I just explained. And I think my explanation also answers your last two questions because I explained how "knowledge" falls short of homologeō (confession) and I also explained what the difference is between those two terms.
But I can anticipate your next question, or at least an obvious next question. Which is, "What is someone sins and they know it's wrong but they do it anyway because they know that they can just confess it to God afterwards and be forgiven?" I would say, you just described grace! When is sin ever right? Sin is never right, especially when it is blatant or willful sin. But Jesus didn't just die for sins of ignorance; He died for willful sins too. King David committed willful sins (2 Sam. 12:9), and there were terrible consequences. But did God forgive him or not? Read Psalm 32!
ReplyDeleteIn re-reading your comment I just noticed that you may have had a question I missed, when you said: "what if someone agrees about the sin during confession... because I don't quite still fully understand." I think I see what your question is now, that maybe I didn't fully answer previously. It seems like you're wondering, "If confession is just agreeing with God that we've sinned, can't a believer agree with God that a sin is a sin and yet still do it anyway? And how is that truly confessing it?" I would answer by saying that God knows a person's heart. As I said previously, if a person is just mouthing a fake confession or doesn't really mean it in their heart, then of course God isn't going to accept a fake confession. God isn't going to accept a lie for the truth. God "desires truth in the inward parts" (Psa. 51:6). But if a person sins and at the same time truly confesses it, then according to 1 John 1:9 God will forgive them. Correct? I mean, let's not overcomplicate this! What does 1 John 1:9 say? I don't read any exclusions in my Bible, do you? It simply says "if we confess our sins," then "He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us of all unrighteousness." Okay, so then let's say that the person you are asking about still continues to sin ("may it never be!" Rom. 6:1-2). If—or should I say "when"—they continue to sin, they would then need to also confess that new sin (or sins). And so on and so forth. You see? That's why I said in one of my previous comments to you: "It is a moment by moment walk with God, you see."
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If you are looking for a perfect Christian, good luck! You won't find any! (See 1 John 1:8.) But if you are looking for sinners saved by grace who still sin—then that is what 1 John 1:9 is for, and that is who 1 John 1:9 is for: believers in God's family (like King David) who nonetheless commit willful and horrible sins! It almost seems like you think that God is scandalized (I mean in the sense of being surprised by it, obviously he disapproves of it) when Christians sin and/or abuse grace. Or that somehow God will retract His promise to forgive if a Christian keeps sinning. That is not the case at all. I'm not saying God approves of it; He most certainly does not! But neither is He shocked or surprised by it. He "knows the end from the beginning" (Isa. 46:10); nothing takes God by surprise. As I've said in a previous comment, the very reason that 1 John 1:9 exists in the Bible is BECAUSE Christians do NOT forsake their sins but instead keep on sinning! Let that sink in. If someone says that they have forsaken their sins, it just proves they are a liar (according to 1 John 1:8), which is a sin. So either a person can admit that they haven't forsaken all their sins or they can lie about it and thus prove that they haven't forsaken all their sins. Either way, they haven't forsaken all their sins. If a person tries to act "holier than thou" about their sin (or sins) as if they are better than other people and they look down on others (as did the Pharisees, see Lk. 18:9-11), it reminds me of the Bible verse that says: "He who sits in the heavens laughs; the LORD shall hold them in derision" (Psa. 2:4).
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So I'm just trying to point out that every single time a Christian sins, they abuse God's grace. Don't they? Isn't that the truth that Lordship Salvationists don't want to admit because that one fact pulls the rug out from under their argument that free grace is "antinomian." They don't want to admit that they are abusing God's grace every single time they sin!!! They want to make it seem like one sin isn't so bad, but when you keep on sinning (who doesn't?), well then now you've crossed the line! No, you crossed the line with the very first sin! You see what I mean? Your question makes it sound as if one sin isn't so bad, or as long as a person doesn't take advantage of grace or as long as they don't abuse grace then it's ok or not so bad. No, every single sin is an abuse of grace! Keep in mind that probably every single sin is also a repeated sin, so that is definitely an abuse of grace! That's what 1 John 1:9 is for: sinners who sin! You see what I'm saying? Sin is not acceptable, but it is forgivable! Whereas Lordship Salvationists try to scandalize us with sin. But that's EXACTLY what 1 John 1:9 is for, you see what I'm saying? And corresponding to that, my point is also to say that you can't scandalize God with your sin (or sins). That's exactly WHY 1 John 1:9 is in the Bible: because God knows we will sin. He knows "the end from the beginning" (Isa. 46:10). Nothing takes God by surprise. He knows we sin and that's exactly why Christ died on the cross: "for our sins" (1 Cor. 15:3). And His death is sufficient payment for ALL sins for all time: past, present, and future! (See Hebrews 10:10-14.) Thus, where there is forgiveness there is no longer any more sacrifice for sin needed (see Hebrews 10:18). So we can have confidence that when we simply "confess" our sins (not just today, but also tomorrow, and the day after that, and the day after that, and the day after that—because we will continue to sin, see 1 Jn. 1:8), God will forgive us! It seems like you are trying to think of the absolute worst case scenario of how someone could hypothetically abuse 1 John 1:9 (like sin and confess at the same time!), and I'm trying to tell you that God's grace is sufficient for you my friend. And it's not only sufficient for you, but also for me, and for every other SINNER in the whole world! (Of course, 1 John 1:9 is only for believers, but I hope you see my point.) 1 John 1:9 is sufficient for every SINNING child of God! Because the price of sin has been "PAID IN FULL" (Jn. 19:30). Praise the Lord! Anyway, I sort of got long-winded there, but I hope you see my point. And hopefully I answered your question. If you have any more, feel free to ask. God Bless
ReplyDeleteI just want to add that I asked Google Gemini the definition of the word "scandalize" to double-check that I wasn't getting it mixed up with something else and that I had the right definition in mind, and I want to share one of the statements it said with you because I thought it was a really good thought and it confirms what I said about how God isn't scandalized by our sin, but in fact that is the very reason why 1 John 1:9 is in the Bible. Google Gemini said: "You can't really be scandalized by something you completely saw coming," and that is exactly my point! Since God is omniscient, it doesn't take Him by surprise when we sin. He already knew about it from eternity past. And that's the very reason Jesus came to die on the cross. Because of our sins! And that's also the very reason why 1 John 1:9 is in the Bible: because of our sins. If no Christian ever sinned then we wouldn't need a verse like 1 John 1:9. But we do, and that's what it's there for: to restore fellowship with our heavenly Father after we sin or when we sin.
ReplyDeleteHey, I believe I now understood your point on 1 John 1:9, but I have another slightly different question coming up, which is how specifically does one even lose fellowship? I talked with some who are more influenced by Thieme who argued that even one sin block fellowship fully, arguing that it is entirely possible for Christians however to live in total sinlesness for extended periods of time.
DeleteI however found this a very difficult explanation. I find it hard to believe that we can perfectly obey the commands of Christ for any extended amount of time to its full standard without error.
You asked: "I have another slightly different question coming up, which is how specifically does one even lose fellowship?"
DeleteIn answer to your question, "how specifically does one even lose fellowship?" I would urge you to not over-complicate it. Sin breaks fellowship (1 John 1:5-6; cf. Deut. 32:20; Psa. 5:4; Isa. 57:17, 59:2; Lk. 5:8; Eph. 4:30; 1 Thess. 5:19; Heb. 12:6-11; 1 Pet. 3:7). The only question is, does sin break fellowship immediately or only after the believer becomes aware of it and refuses to confess it (i.e. refuses to walk in the light but rather tries to hide the sin and/or excuse it). Notice that 1 John 1:7 doesn't say "if we walk according to the light," but rather it says "if we walk in the light..." In terms of maintaining fellowship with God, the important thing is not so much how we walk (because we will sin), but rather where we walk: either "in the light" or "in the darkness" (cf. J. Vernon McGee, How to Have Fellowship With God, pp. 14-15). I think this is a key point to understand. What exactly does it mean to "walk in the light"? William L. Pettingill explains: "God assures us that 'if we walk in the light, as he is in the light,' that is, if we are frank and candid with Him, not trying to hide anything from Him, but dragging everything out into the light, judging ourselves in His sight, then 'we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin' (I John 1:7)." (Pettingill, Bible Questions Answered, p. 336.) On 1 John 1:7, J. Dwight Pentecost observes: "A literal translation of 1 John 1:7 reads, 'The blood of Jesus Christ, God's Son, keeps on cleansing us from all sin.' Though it was shed nearly two thousand years ago, the blood of Christ has full power to cleanse. Fellowship with God is possible because of the lasting worth of the blood of Jesus Christ." (Pentecost, The Joy of Fellowship: A Study of First John, pp. 29-30.) And so the key point to understand is that fellowship with God is maintained so long as the Christian "walks in the light"! In other words, loss of fellowship is not the result of one sin that is acknowledged and confessed, but rather it is the result of "walking in the darkness," that is, if and when a believer tries to hide and/or cover up his or her sin: that is when a loss of fellowship occurs. Charlie Bing affirms: "Loss of fellowship – Believers who live in sin walk in darkness and forfeit fellowship with God and with other believers (1 John 1:3-7)." (Charlie Bing, "The Reality of Carnal Christians," GraceNotes, Number 76.)
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When a Christian loses fellowship with God, it is comparable to the prodigal son in the Gospel of Luke (chapter 15), when he went to live in the pig pen. That is when loss of fellowship with the Father occurs. Lewis Sperry Chafer explains it like this: "Christian fellowship may be lost through sin. 'If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth' (1 John 1:6). This passage has to do with loss of fellowship (not salvation) through sin. The cure for a Christian’s sin is not in a second regeneration and justification by faith, but rather, 'If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness' (v. 9). This is the believer's way back into blessed joy and fellowship with his Lord, and should never be confused with the establishment of the eternal grounds of salvation. The unregenerate are not saved by confessing, but by believing. Thus the Prodigal Son, representing the possible return of the Jewish publicans and sinners under the Jewish covenants and relationships, returned to his father on the ground of confession, and not by a birth, or generation. He was lost and was found, which has not the same significance as being lost and saved. He never ceased to be a son, and was restored to the former relation to his father by confession: 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.' The same underlying truth will be found in the other parts of the same parable: 'The lost sheep' and 'The lost coin.' Thus a saint of this dispensation, being under the new covenant, may return to his place of blessing by confession (1 John 1:9). David did not pray that his salvation might be restored after his great sin; but he did pray: 'Restore unto me the joys of my salvation,' and that after his full confession had been made." (Chafer, Salvation, pp. 108-109.) So the point I'm making is that loss of fellowship is the result of "walking in the darkness" (i.e. living in sin, that is, a lifestyle where the believer lives in the pig pen like the prodigal son); fellowship is not lost so long as the Christian walks honestly and openly before God and confesses his or her sins as they (the sins) are brought to light. Thus the saying: "Keep short accounts with God." And similarly: "Be quick to repent and quick to forgive, and you'll never be far from the Lord" (in terms of fellowship). I hope this explanation helps.
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You went on to say: "I talked with some who are more influenced by Thieme who argued that even one sin blocks fellowship fully, arguing that it is entirely possible for Christians however to live in total sinlessness for extended periods of time. I however found this a very difficult explanation. I find it hard to believe that we can perfectly obey the commands of Christ for any extended amount of time to its full standard without error."
DeleteI completely agree with you. Christians who say that they can live for extended periods of time completely without sinning—it seems naive, not to mention arrogant! It seems to run counter to what the apostle James says in his epistle when he writes: "For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to rein in the whole body as well" (James 3:2, NASB). Notice that James includes himself when he says, "For we all stumble in many ways"! The apostle James was known for his piety, yet even he admitted that he stumbled in many ways! And let us not forget the struggle of the great Apostle Paul in Romans chapter 7. Some Bible expositors (usually those in the "Lordship Salvation" camp) view Paul's struggle in Romans 7 as being prior to his conversion, but a better interpretation is that it describes the struggle of the carnal Christian, or a Christian who is attempting to live the Christian life in his or her own strength without relying on Christ (cf. Jn. 15:5; Gal. 2:20; Phil. 4:13) to live His life through us via the Holy Spirit's power (Gal. 5:16-17; 1 Thess. 5:19). The Christian that you describe who apparently lives "in total sinlessness for extended periods of time" reminds me of something that J. Dwight Pentecost said in his commentary on First John. Dr. Pentecost related the following true story, writing: "An Irish pastor told me of a man who said, 'Pastor Mullen, I have not sinned in thirty years.' The pastor gasped, 'You haven't sinned in thirty years?' 'No, I haven't.' Mullen replied, 'Brother, keep it up for four more years and you'll have preeminence in heaven, because the Lord Jesus only lived thirty-three years without sinning.' John denies that we attain a state of perfection in this life. . . . Fellowship with the Father is not the result of attaining a state of holiness in this life." (J. Dwight Pentecost, The Joy of Fellowship: A Study of First John, p. 30, ellipsis added.)
And if I may add on to Jonathan's points, both David and Solomon had more than a single wife. This was sin that they never stopped. And that's before we get into David's adultery, murder of Uriah, etc or Solomon's idolatry and worship of pagan deities. Abraham had instances of lying after believing God.
ReplyDeleteCase after case we have believers doing what was wrong, but whether intentional or not the sin is still paid for. Romans 6:1 says we should not go on sinning that grace may abound, yes. But that doesn't negate that just before in Romans 5:20 we're explicitly told that where sin abounded, grace did more abound. Intentionality is not factored into this.
We shouldn't sin, but when we do (and we will) it doesn't nullify the grace shown.
Put another way, the good we do couldn't get us an inch further into heaven when we were lost. Just the same the bad we do doesn't place us an inch outside of God's hand.
Valtteri, you and Jonathan have both been a great help to me over the past few years. I'm praying for you to have peace of mind.
Jonathan, similarly I'm keeping you and you wife on the same prayer list.
Hi Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteThanks for those thoughts and many blessings to you. I really appreciate you praying for my wife and I. She's more stable now, but still has a lot of health concerns that I can't really go into here. But thank you so much for keeping us in your prayers! God bless