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I have been struggling with a logical dilemma, do you have any answers on how to view this?
ReplyDelete"How can the Free Grace theology view of John 15 stand, as they view the vine as experiential fellowship, and someone cast away from the vine is cast away from fellowship, not into hell. However, how does the claim that we can only bear fruit when in the vine (fellowship), account for the fact that the standard remedy for fellowship (confession and forsaking (Proverbs 28:13) the sin) are fruits? The term "fruit" translates the Greek καρπός (karpos), which in a biblical framework refers to the outward product or evidence produced by the Holy Spirit working in and through a believer, such as the qualities listed in Galatians 5:22–23 or the righteous actions that flow from spiritual life and power. By this definition, confession of sin and forsaking of sin are logically considered fruits, as they are Spirit-produced outcomes. The challenge is this: If one can only bear fruit while in the vine (i.e., in fellowship/abiding), how can confession and forsaking sin—actions that are biblically presented as fruit—serve as the remedy to restore broken fellowship? This appears self-defeating, as the means of return would require the very condition (fruit-bearing fellowship) it seeks to restore"
The issue is that Free Grace commentaries tend to strcitly say that no fruit apart from fellowship is possible, as Robert Dean, Jr writes:
"This is the goal of the believer’s life and necessary to glorify God. In John chapter fifteen Jesus states that abiding in Him is the necessary and only condition for fruit production."
As I'm sure you probably know, there are quite a few interpretations of John 15:1-11 that are consistent with Free Grace Theology. I'm not sure that we necessarily need to get into all that, but we can if you want.
ReplyDeleteI'll begin with your first statement. You said: "How can the Free Grace theology view of John 15 stand, as they view the vine as experiential fellowship, and someone cast away from the vine is cast away from fellowship, not into hell."
I would deny your premise. The vine is not fellowship, abiding in the vine is fellowship. The Greek word for "abide" is menō. It means to abide or to remain. Here is the key distinction: being "in" the Vine (i.e. "in Christ") is salvation; whereas abiding in the Vine (Christ) is fellowship. You see the difference? Your statement seems to conflate those two things. That seems to be (as least in part) why you are thus confused.
You again conflated salvation and fellowship when you said: "The challenge is this: If one can only bear fruit while in the vine (i.e., in fellowship/abiding), how can confession and forsaking sin—actions that are biblically presented as fruit—serve as the remedy to restore broken fellowship?"
I would not necessarily agree with the way you phrased the hypothetical. I would instead say that a Christian can only bear fruit while in fellowship with the vine." By way of contrast, you said that "one can only bear fruit while in the vine (i.e., in fellowship/abiding)." But those are two different things! Being "in the vine" is salvation (that's our position: "in Christ"); whereas being "in fellowship/abiding" in the vine is discipleship (this is our condition in this world): Are we following Christ? Are we walking in step with the Spirit? (Gal. 5:16) If so, we will bear fruit!
All this might seem like a minor distinction, but it's important. In fact, it's all important! It's essential to understand. Because as Christians, we are always "in the vine" (i.e. "in Christ" ) positionally speaking, even when in our condition here on this earth we might be out of fellowship with Him. It's the difference between "position" and "condition." (C. I. Scofield and Lewis Sperry Chafer have written a lot on this topic.) As Christians, we are never severed from the Vine (Christ). But if and when we "quench the Spirit" (1 Thess. 5:19), then we are not letting God work through us. That is when we are out of fellowship (not abiding in the Vine), even though we are still "in Christ."
You asked about fruit. As Christians, we are always "in Christ" (or "in the Vine"). Therefore we will bear fruit if and when we allow His life to work itself out in us. We just bear the fruit, you see. He produces it. It's the fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22-23). So when we don't quench the Spirit, but rather are walking or living by the Spirit's power (Gal. 5:16), He will produce the fruit in and through us!
By way of contrast, your statements make it seem as if we have to start producing fruit in order to get back "in" the Vine. No! We are always "in" the Vine positionally speaking; even when we are out of fellowship we are still positionally "in Christ." So that is the key point to understand. And that is the answer to your question. Understanding that. Because then it is just a matter of (on our part) opening the spigot so to speak, or turning on the water faucet and letting the water flow through! The Holy Spirit is the water (Jn. 7:38-39). We are, as the hymn says, "channels only"! The plumbing is always connected, you see. We just need to stop "quenching the Spirit" and then His fruit will be produced in us by the Holy Spirit (e.g., love, joy, peace, etc.) as we abide in Christ and we will "bear much fruit and so prove to be His disciples" (Jn. 15:8).
No, but I meant that 1 John, Proverbs 28 and such present confession (or confession + forsaking sin as in Proverbs) as prerequisites to restore fellowship, but aren't those actions themselves fruits?
ReplyDeleteThe issue I found, but couldn't explain is the following logical issue:
P1: Confession and forsaking of sin are fruit (Spirit-produced, obedient outward acts; cf. Proverbs 28:13, 1 John 1:9).
P2: No fruit can be produced outside of abiding in fellowship with Christ
P3: Confession and forsaking of sin are the necessary means to restore abiding fellowship when it is broken (1 John 1:9; Proverbs 28:13).
Logical outcome:
If confession and forsaking are themselves fruit, and fruit only grows in fellowship, then one must already be in fellowship to produce them. Yet Scripture presents these very acts as the doorway back into fellowship. Therefore, the remedy demands the very condition it must restore.
(I must confess that I am lacking in information on the doctrine of fellowship, which may be why I do not know how to answer this issue)